WORD TO THE WISE

Sara R Phillips Chairperson of TENI

SPEAKS WITH Alexís Ríva

Sara: Mental health has been crucial to me since started out on this journey 25 years ago. An awful lot of it was to do with looking after yourself. In the early days didn’t. Eventually, started looking into ways of finding time for myself, to step back and do things that might be a little less stressful. That’s served me well, especially in the last 15 years since transitioned.

Alexis: How long are you in TENI?

Sara: I’m a member of TENI since the start, which is 2006, but I’m the Chair since 2012.

Alexis: Going back before that, what about when you wouldn’t have met many other trans people?

Sara: I’ve had connections to trans people since 1992 from when first stepped out into the predominantly gay community, but the trans community were on the periphery of that. went through four or five years when was struggling with only being able to spend part time life as myself because had responsibilities. struggled with how was ever going to transition as a middle aged person working in the construction industry predominantly, how would you pay for a roof over your head, food on the table, maintenance for the kids, and keep your family with you? When went to the support group in Dublin the first time it started had other people to share my stories with and would listen to them and we could share our problems.

Alexis: didn’t have a family to think of, or all the obstacles you had to consider. So my way of dealing with my mental health is to be around other trans people, because don’t actually encounter that many trans people in my general life, in work or living in Louth.

Sara: Do you think it was more beneficial you were that bit younger when you were dealing with your transition, that you didn’t have those extra pressures on you?

Alexis: Definitely. Like, only start figuring myself out when met other trans people. But would love a family. look at other people who have transitioned and already have kids. feel like it will be a lot harder now to have kids.

Sara: Maybe true, but there’s also the fact of having to come out after having kids and having a partner, whether the partner will be supportive, whether the kids will be okay with it. know other trans people my age who have lost their kids, their family don’t want to know. Do you think it’s easier now, in this era, considering what you would know of the past?

Alexis: It seems like it’s easier and it isn’t easier at the same time. There’s high exposure to trans identities and it seems to bring a lot more hate. There was miseducation back in the day, but there’s just this big wave of hatred now because of how complex gender is with all the different identities. But yes, can imagine it’s easier now.

Sara: don’t know what it’s like coming out now, but back in the mid ‘90s it was really difficult. Trans people didn’t want to be visible, because it felt like it was more dangerous than even being gay. Nowadays, while those dangers are still there to a certain degree, traversing life tends to be much easier. Even for my predecessors in the ‘80s, know from talking to them, some of the things they went through.

Alexis: wonder, the number of trans murders, of trans women of colour, is so high now, the number probably wasn’t as high in the ‘80s only because not as many people were out.

Sara: Not necessarily because think first of all, that problem was there back in the ‘80s, the issue was there was no program to monitor the numbers until ten years ago. In my own experience in the late ‘90s, early 2000’s, you would read an awful lot of reports of trans women around the world being killed violently. Going back to the health aspect, do you think you consciously look after your mental health?

Alexis: Yes. It’s an ongoing thing, it needs to always be maintained. From giving up alcohol and smoking, and trying to focus on my mental health instead of just letting it magically fix itself. And exercising more. As said, being around other trans people helps me. keep finding myself back in the cis world, and we both know how lonely that is.

Sara: find comfort in both worlds. I’ve had long enough to find those niches in the cis world that fit into and have friends there. But for trans people going through this process it’s crucial having other trans people in your life who have experienced what you are dealing with.

Alexis: know how much the older generation have done to pave the way and make it so much easier for me. came out in 2015, the year that the legislation came out, so it couldn’t have been better for me. But that doesn’t mean wasn’t struggling before that. do find the older generation tell me to calm down and that need to take my time with my transition, but believe if want things to happen right now, deserve them to happen right now.

Sara: You deserve to go at whatever speed you want to go. would say sometimes patience is good and sometimes that kind of demand is also good. find it hugely inspirational so many young people coming out now, saying ‘I want this and you should give this to me’. I’ve seen so many of my friends before me who were patient, who were so patient they never got there. 2015 didn’t happen by older people, it happened by a mixture across the ages. If you look at Katherine Zappone’s civic forum in Leinster House in January, 2015, it was crowded with young people, 16, 17, 18 year-olds. For me, that just gives me the energy to keep going.

Senator David Norris

SPEAKS WITH Samuel Riggs

Samuel: You’re credited with kicking off the whole gay liberation movement in Ireland, how did you look after yourself around that time. Was it really stressful?

David: suppose was really stressed at one stage but that was actually the thing that gave me the possibility of taking the action. I’d originally been in charge of the legal group in the Irish gay rights movement. That meant defending men who were found in compromising circumstances. We had a very good record, we won every single case, but had hoped one of them would try a constitutional defence. Of course the last thing they wanted was extra publicity.

So we started looking at the possibility of my taking a case. The difficulty was to show that had been injured or damaged by the law. One thing that had happened was that I’d had a collapse in Switzer’s restaurant. They brought me to Baggot Street Hospital because they thought I’d had a heart attack. It turned out to be alright, but under investigation acknowledged was gay. They sent me off to a psychiatrist who told me,’The laws in this country are very antagonistic to gay people which would be damaging to your health. You should go and live in the South of France.’ That really infuriated me but it gave me the opportunity to take the action. But my older brother was in great difficulty at that time, my mother had just died, the fellow was in love with had gotten married and gone to live in Canada, so with everything that was happening it was no wonder was stressed!

Samuel: Did you ever suff er with your mental health?

David: never suff ered with mental health but did suff er from depression after the Presidential election. But so many filthy and dishonest things were said about me during that time. There was a savage attack upon me by the media which was extremely homophobic.

Samuel: How difficult was it for you after the election? And what brought you out of it?

David: For two years didn’t laugh, and laughed all the time. That was awful. just didn’t feel like laughing. But gradually got my laughter back. suppose it was friends, also I’m quite religious, so took great comfort in that. used to go to a gym in Capel Street, would force myself, wouldn’t want to go down, but after a while of exercising felt fantastic and would cycle home singing away.

Samuel: I’ve had my own mental health problems.

“I did suffer from depression after the Presidential election.

David: About being gay?

Samuel: Yes. We lived in Brighton which is like a gay metropolis, and then came to Carlow with my family when was 12, which was a bit of a culture shock.

David: Were you aware of being gay as a child.

Samuel: No, it was never a thing had to think about in Brighton, but in Carlow, everyone was calling me ‘gay’ ‘fag’, all this kind of stuff and was like - ‘That’s not me’. But it was me. had an English accent and was eff eminate and was a bigger guy, so was different.

David: You should have kicked the shit out of them.

Samuel: I’m a bit of a gentle giant! Then turned 17 and was actually outed by a very nasty person on the internet to all my friends and family.

David: Was this nasty person gay?

Samuel: Yes. We can be quite mean to each other a lot of the time. We kind of in-fight a lot.

David: In my generation, as a result of the pressure between the force of law and the church, people could be very very neurotic. don’t see that in the young people of today.

Samuel: think we get it a little bit differently, we have social media, so instead of it coming directly people are sniping at each other from the sides. It can get quite nasty.

David: don’t have an awful lot of contact with the gay community, because it’s built around bars. had a very aggressive cancer after the Presidential election and had a liver transplant and as a result I’m not supposed to drink. But people know who am and if go into a gay pub tend to get rather drunken people going ‘Let me tell you about my boyfriend’.

Samuel: It does seem like you have to go out to bars to meet gay men.

David: Well, you could use the internet. Grindr.

Samuel: don’t have it anymore! Grindr is terrible for your mental health. You’re seeing all these muscled people and look like a plate of mashed potato. You can get a lot of nastiness on it. People tell you you look fat, you don’t look good. decided to give it up for my mental health.

David: A friend of mine showed it to me on his phone about two years ago. couldn’t believe it. He brought up people in the vicinity looking for sex. The nearest one was about a hundred yards away!

Ailbhe Smyth Co-Director of Together for Yes

SPEAKS WITH Emily O’Connell

“I think it’s really positive and empowering for people to know that you have a history.

Ailbhe: When came out you really had two options in Ireland - you could either be a gay man or you could be lesbian. One of the things think is brilliant now, you actually get to think about where you are on that whole spectrum of sexuality. It was pretty narrow way back then.

Emily: Do you think you knew people back then who would identify differently now?

Ailbhe: Who knows, because it wasn’t part of our vocabulary, the words weren’t there, the language wasn’t there. It was very difficult when came out as lesbian. was already in my late 30’s and had a daughter. It was even more stigmatised to be a lesbian than be a gay man. I’ve often thought might well have described myself as just simply non binary. Which is not to say I’m not happy being lesbian, but if I’d had other ways of thinking about my sexuality. What about you?

Emily: identify as lesbian but feel androgynous is the word. People kind of use that to describe style but feel that in my personality as well. Because I’m a woman there’s things that happened to me that wouldn’t have happened otherwise, so it is part of my identity.

Ailbhe: I’m a very strong feminist, standing up for women is really important to me.

Emily: The All Ireland Student Activist Network had their Rise weekend in Cork a few weeks ago, and that was the first time was at a discussion and talked about being an activist, and having to look after your mental health. It wasn’t until after we had the discussion realised there were loads of times where had spiralled down just because was so tired. So I’m actually still trying to learn how to deal with that.

Ailbhe: think we’re all looking for those tips. But at a very important level it’s about being aware of where your feelings and your mood is going and what is it around you that’s making you feel like that. That makes it easier, if you can say something has to give. had mental health problems when was in my 20’s with very severe depression and it was really only in my 30’s that began to come out of that and understand that this wasn’t just about me, this was also about the environment was in.

Emily: Because you’ll always think it’s just you and just how you are.

Ailbhe: You can take responsibility for your mental health, but you also have to look at the system, the culture you are a part of and how it has impacted on you. always think when people say ‘as an activist how do you look after yourself’ and think enjoy being an activist, it gives me energy!

Emily: It’s like a lot of people really don’t want to be an activist but feel like they have to get involved. But for you it’s just something that you do.

Ailbhe: Temperamentally, if am two days without a cause I’m thinking, ‘what am going to do, what is going on’?! But on Sunday was really tired, it was a very busy week and we had the homelessness rally, so did that disengagement thing. rang a couple of people and said ‘sorry, can’t be doing anything today’. Do people of your age talk about health?

Emily: find that my group of LGBT friends are way better at talking about stuff like that.

Ailbhe: Why do you think that group is better at speaking about it, is it to do with their sexuality?

Emily: think it is, and it’s often the people who came out younger because they went into spaces like BeLonG To and learned that you should be looking after yourself. think when you’ve gone through coming out really young you have to deal with a lot of stuff

Ailbhe: What age were you when you came out?

Emily: came out to my friends when was 15 and to my family when was 16.

Ailbhe: So you were very young really.

Emily: You said you didn’t come out until later.

Ailbhe: In my 20’s it didn’t really occur to me. Maybe didn’t know you could be lesbian, so it was more so through the women’s movement and working with women.

Emily: can’t remember ever not knowing.

Ailbhe: That’s a generational diff erence, things have opened up so much more. came out to other lesbians, but in a very real way who else could come out to? My family actively didn’t want to know. When would be introduced on radio programs, would introduce myself as ‘I’m a lesbian feminist’, but they would say ‘feminist Ailbhe Smyth’. Nobody wanted to use the word.

Emily: A big thing for me is the over sexualisation of lesbians, usually by heterosexual men.

Ailbhe: That was more covert when was young because pornography didn’t have the same impact culturally. Whereas didn’t really experience that, it was more the complete silencing of your existence. always make a point if get asked to speak at Pride to say at some point - ‘let’s hear it for the lesbians’! And all the women cheer. Because you don’t actually hear that very often, you don’t hear our history being out there.

Emily: We know older gay men here who will talk about the culture, but we know nothing about the lesbian community in Ireland before the ‘90s. We really need to document that because we have such an amazing history. It’s probably very tied in with the feminist movement.

Ailbhe: Lesbians were always among the leaders of Irish women’s liberation in the ‘70s and then in the ‘80s in the years of austerity, we survived, we built things, we continued to go out and have fun, we made families. So we need these stories, we have all these generations and there’s so much there. think it’s really positive and empowering for people to know that you have a history.